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wolf9416

Northkin CID cycle

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wolf9416    15

....these names and rules mean nothing to me. How does one trollz. Any thoughts on how it looks so far?

Eilish Garrity looks cool at least, he seems really strong. Costs as much as a willbreaker. They both have puppet strings, but instead of being able to give tough and force beasts like the willbreaker does, he can: remove upkeeps, damage opponents for casting at you, cast a spell and teleport to a different position, and put out some pretty decent damage on his spells. Unless I'm in a list where I'm building for the double tough (ie. eMakeda double ferox), I think I would likely bring out Eilish + 1 willbreaker instead of two will breakers. 

Also seems pretty crazy to add a solo with upkeep removal on a stick to every faction. 

Edited by wolf9416

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StreetPizza    20

Eilish is completely off the rails as written.  Eiryss2 was taken down a peg becuase universal upkeep removal was a bad thing and prevented too many casters from being able to rely on their game plan ... now we see this guy.  Also because he's so good and they want to change themes to allow mercs he suddenly becomes a ubiquitous pick so single wound spell caster units will also take a nose dive in popularity.  

Bad design all around and I hope he gets nuked from orbit in CID

The cool thing about the addition to trolls is they get two cool ambushing units.  A ranged pig unit and some seriously scary ambushing attack bears.  If you take both of those units at max FA its most of your force so they can do a heavy ambush theme.  Really cool.

The new kriels stone attachment has some good synergy with Northkin models and makes them a compelling choice over vanilla trolls without overshadowing the versatility of the vanilla force.

New caster ... meh.  Her feat needs to be reworded so that enemy models starting their activation in or entering her control area are blinded.  Then she has play.

Borka2 changes are good but we'll see with play testing.

Everything else is just more options and balancing.  

The last thing though is the addition of a rule that all theme forces can take 1 merc/minion solo, battle engine, and/or unit in the theme and they apply for adding up to free points or using the free solo/attachment slot where applicable.  This, in my opinion, is the single dumbest thing to come out of PP in all of MKIII.  Themes are doing well so far as powerful but not crippling options in most cases.  This change puts the final nail in the coffin of vanilla lists as there is simply no reason to play them anymore.

As an example here is Sloan in heavy metal:

https://conflictchamber.com/#c1201b_-0n9a9k9k9k9kf6akanaj9ke5

Cygnar Army - 75 / 75 points
[Theme] Heavy Metal

(Sloan 1) Captain Kara Sloan [+28]
 - Hunter [11]
 - Hunter [11]
 - Hunter [11]
 - Hunter [11]
 - Hurricane [39]
 - Reinholdt [0(4)]
Captain Arlan Strangewayes [0(4)]
Journeyman Warcaster [0(4)]
 - Charger [8]

Aiyana and Holt [8]
- Murdoch [4]

Or alternatively

(Sloan 1) Captain Kara Sloan [+28]
 - Hunter [11]
 - Hunter [11]
 - Hunter [11]
 - Hunter [11]
 - Hurricane [39]
 - Squire [0(5)]
Captain Arlan Strangewayes [0(4)]
Journeyman Warcaster [0(4)]
 - Charger [8] 

- Charger [8]

Taryn di la Rovissi [4]

Because that's what Kara needed.  Shadow fire or a damage buff available in theme.

or this:

https://conflictchamber.com/#c1201b_-0e7D9y9I9Hakada5a6a8bz

Cygnar Army - 74 / 75 points
[Theme] Storm Division

(Stryker 2) Lord Commander Stryker [+28]
 - Lancer [10]
 - Ol' Rowdy [18]
 - Stormclad [18]
 - Squire [0(5)]
Storm Lances (max) [20]
Stormblade Infantry [10]
 - Stormblade Infantry Officer & Standard [0(5)]
 - Stormblade Infantry Storm Gunner (2) [4]
Storm Strider [18]
Lt. Harrison Gibbs [4]

So Stryker2 can always have Gibbs along now for that sweet sweet healing after overdrive.  Did you like having a colossal on the board?  Too bad because Stryker now trivially says no with no consequence.

Creator's might in Protectorate is supposed to be about warjacks right?  Not anymore:

https://conflictchamber.com/#c2201b_-0d171U1U1q1q1q24243C3z3z3B3B2_2_

Protectorate Army - 75 / 75 points
[Theme] The Creator's Might

(Amon 1) High Allegiant Amon Ad-Raza [+29]
 - Crusader [10]
 - Crusader [10]
 - Dervish [7]
 - Dervish [7]
 - Dervish [7]
 - Templar [15]
 - Templar [15]
The Covenant of Menoth [0(4)]
Vassal of Menoth [0(3)]
Vassal of Menoth [3]
Wrack [1]
Wrack [1]
Choir of Menoth (min) [4]
Choir of Menoth (min) [4]
Idrians full [15] allowed because they're partisan mercs

- idrian chief and guide [5]

If i could find 4 points I could also have Eilish in there for upkeep removal and he'd get reposition 3" on top of his other stupidities.

All in all its just a poorly thought out addition that needs years of play testing to see the full effect of what it will do to the wider meta.   It also really benefits warmachine over hordes as there just aren't nearly as many really good minion options as there are mercs.

One more for the bonus round:

https://conflictchamber.com/#c2201b_-0EbV2f1X3D2_2_2mbQ2v2jfV2jfV

Protectorate Army - 74 / 75 points
[Theme] Exemplar Interdiction

(Kreoss 3) Intercessor Kreoss [+28]
 - Fire of Salvation [16]
 - Guardian [15]
High Exemplar Gravus [9]
Choir of Menoth (min) [4]
Ruhpert Carvolo [4]
Exemplar Errants (max) [16]
 - Exemplar Errant Officer & Standard [0(4)]
Exemplar Vengers (max) [20]
Knights Exemplar [9]
 - Knights Exemplar Officer [0(5)]
Knights Exemplar [9]
 - Knights Exemplar Officer [0(5)]

Yep those are tough no knockdown errants.  Yay!  That's what we wanted to see back in the game under theme lists right guys ... guys?  This one doesn't even have defender's ward but that's certainly doable. 

Edited by StreetPizza

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Polipotent    5

I agree with Dave, that solo seems too good. Now I think it's too good just for the boosted hex blast on a stick.  The d3 damage thing is meh, coming from a faction that has void tracers its VERY situational, basically you go against something like Battle Mages or Hex Hunters and it's awesome.  Eilish only as a 6 inch command so in reality I think he is just going to get shot first.  

One thing is that he has no real defensive tech and it seems like he would die to a stiff breeze. 

Even though some of my crew is complaining about the merc rules for theme lists I think it will be okay.  It just gives more list creation options for a meta that is going to be all theme lists anyways. 

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StreetPizza    20
27 minutes ago, Polipotent said:

I agree with Dave, that solo seems too good. Now I think it's too good just for the boosted hex blast on a stick.  The d3 damage thing is meh, coming from a faction that has void tracers its VERY situational, basically you go against something like Battle Mages or Hex Hunters and it's awesome.  Eilish only as a 6 inch command so in reality I think he is just going to get shot first.  

One thing is that he has no real defensive tech and it seems like he would die to a stiff breeze. 

Even though some of my crew is complaining about the merc rules for theme lists I think it will be okay.  It just gives more list creation options for a meta that is going to be all theme lists anyways. 

Remember void tracers are situational because that's all that they do.  Imagine if they also offered a blanket +2 def vs shooting.  The damage to magic casters would now become secondary but it would essentially mean that you can't take things like druids vs Ret because the void tracers would be in every damn list.  

That's the Eilish effect.  He'll kill druids, battle mages, Kolduhn lords, out riders, cephalyx and other stuff just by his omnipresent nature.

The really unfortunate thing is you can't show that with CID testing because like you say "oh it was bad in this matchup" but who knows if its bad for the Meta at large.  You can only show that by releasing it into the wild but by then its too late.  The same problem is present with the merc change.  Yes it opens up diversity in theory.  Only releasing into the wild will show how lists still stagnate on a couple really powerful merc options.  In theme solos like Knight Exmeplar Senechals aren't going to see the light of day once they're compared to things like Ruhpert.

Thing is you're not adding list diversity you're just killing the in theme options that were seeing play for the first time in a long time.  Its a lateral shift in diversity if anything.

Edited by StreetPizza

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Xeurian    16
9 minutes ago, Polipotent said:

We will see.  I also suspect Eilish is the NQ model that is being released with NQ Prime in September. 

Yes, we have already seen Holden's cards so it must be Eilish.

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wolf9416    15

The CID forums seem to be losing their mind about the change to theme lists... and theme lists in general. I would be surprised if the rule makes it through CID un-altered, but crazier stuff has happened.

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Polipotent    5

Am I missing something that makes the change so bad? I had this freak out when I started realizing that theme lists were going to be the norm for list making, this doesn't seem as bad of a change. 

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wolf9416    15
7 minutes ago, Polipotent said:

Am I missing something that makes the change so bad? I had this freak out when I started realizing that theme lists were going to be the norm for list making, this doesn't seem as bad of a change. 

I think the main issue is that themes are supposed to reward you for limiting your choices, and this just really blows that open. Merc/minion models were a lot of the time the reason to play out of theme. The balance of the benefits for theme vs the models that you are unable to take. With this, there are a lot of factions that will just never play out of theme anymore, at least in competitive play. If that is their goal then fine, but not everyone is happy with the idea of 80% + of the lists being played as being theme.

Plus the whole fluff 'theme' of the list is kind of gone when you can take any merc model in the army...

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Polipotent    5
2 minutes ago, wolf9416 said:

I think the main issue is that themes are supposed to reward you for limiting your choices, and this just really blows that open.

See and here is where my opinion differs. Most of the themes BARELY limit your choices, so what does it matter if you bring one more solo, unit and battle engine?  The game is going towards Theme machine anyways.  Most spells/feats are friendly faction now anyways so the only pieces that are going to be in every list are the support pieces. 

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wolf9416    15
2 minutes ago, Polipotent said:

See and here is where my opinion differs. Most of the themes BARELY limit your choices, so what does it matter if you bring one more solo, unit and battle engine? 

Yes and that is already an issue, this is just making it worse. I don't think it is this one change that the biggest problem, it is just another reason why the concept of theme lists is broken.

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Polipotent    5

A Dev talk just started about this topic.  Here are the goals for the merc changes.  

The goal for this a few things:

1. To solidify theme forces as the primary way lists are constructed. What we mean by this is we intend for people to focus on theme forces as the building blocks of list building. When reaching for a style of play or a list to counter XYZ we want it to feel natural for players to reach for a theme force. This change helps promote this by allowing additional flexibility and the inclusion of 'Tech' pieces to be included inside of theme forces creating a more compelling and interesting list building experience.

2. We hope to remove some of the 'Rock, Paper, Scissors' aspect that some themes feel. Having huge drawbacks in some theme lists, while it could make for counter play from opponents, it pushed people away from playing some theme forces. With this inclusion, some of the lesser played theme forces receive the tools they need to answer questions that they could not have in their base forms making them a more viable option.

 

Seems to be pretty clear what they want for list creation. 

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StreetPizza    20
1 hour ago, Polipotent said:

A Dev talk just started about this topic.  Here are the goals for the merc changes.  

The goal for this a few things:

1. To solidify theme forces as the primary way lists are constructed. What we mean by this is we intend for people to focus on theme forces as the building blocks of list building. When reaching for a style of play or a list to counter XYZ we want it to feel natural for players to reach for a theme force. This change helps promote this by allowing additional flexibility and the inclusion of 'Tech' pieces to be included inside of theme forces creating a more compelling and interesting list building experience.

2. We hope to remove some of the 'Rock, Paper, Scissors' aspect that some themes feel. Having huge drawbacks in some theme lists, while it could make for counter play from opponents, it pushed people away from playing some theme forces. With this inclusion, some of the lesser played theme forces receive the tools they need to answer questions that they could not have in their base forms making them a more viable option.

 

Seems to be pretty clear what they want for list creation. 

The big problem is that it won't accomplish #2.  Instead you'll continue to see the "good" theme forces only they'll be that much better.  See my example of kara sloan in heavy metal.  The inclusion of mercs isn't all of a sudden going to make sons of the tempest look better as it will still have all of the same problems its had to date.  Instead by allowing mercs into heavy metal you've now further put the nail in the coffin of sons as you can now have shadow fire in heavy metal via Taryn.

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Xeurian    16

 

7 minutes ago, Deademperor said:

Fuck yes!

Oh yeah, the Northkin stuff is sure to hit a lot of high notes with anyone who already likes Trollbloods thematically. Attack bears aren't all, there's bears pulling a mobile tavern!

 

 

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StreetPizza    20
2 minutes ago, Xeurian said:

 

Oh yeah, the Northkin stuff is sure to hit a lot of high notes with anyone who already likes Trollbloods thematically. Attack bears aren't all, there's bears pulling a mobile tavern!

 

 

and fire grenade throwing rabble and the kriel stone generates its own fury now.

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wolf9416    15
3 minutes ago, Polipotent said:

That new skorne theme list though. Dammmmmmmm.

Yupp, just created a separate thread about it xD 

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wolf9416    15

So, Eilish went up to 5 points and Hex Blast was changed to Chasten in the newest update. Chasten still gives him upkeep removal, but its range is 2" shorter than hex blast, 1 less pow and its not an AoE.

Thoughts? He still seems super strong, but I think both of these changes are a step in the right direction.

Edited by wolf9416

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StreetPizza    20

He needs to lose upkeep removal entirely.  Up keeps need to be worthwhile and we saw in MKII when a "near" universally available solo can remove them fairly trivially up keeps start to become a liability rather than a benefit.  Upkeep removal needs to be handed out sparingly and with due consideration to all faction interactions involved meaning it should really be restricted to in faction abilities.

That's my take on it.  At 5pts with that ability you're still going to see him everywhere.

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wolf9416    15
1 hour ago, StreetPizza said:

we saw in MKII when a "near" universally available solo can remove them fairly trivially

While I agree to an extent, there is a massive difference between what Eilish can do and what Eiryss was able to do.

Eiryss is SPD 7 with a range 12 gun, meaning she could drop upkeeps from 19 inches away. She also had advance deploy and pathfinder, meaning her threat range and ability to hide were insane.

Eilish is SPD 6 with a range 8 spell, so its only a 14" threat, no AD and no pathfinder.

Eiryss is also steath and def 16 arm 12, meaning it was extremely difficult to remove her from the table and prevent her from dropping upkeeps unless you could ignore stealth with an accurate gun or drift an AoE onto her.

Eilish is def 13, arm 14, making him much easier to remove (added to the fact that he has to be further up to threaten the upkeep removal)

As a note that I missed previously as well, Chasten has to damage the model to remove the upkeep, not just hit. Of course it will be a boosted pow 12, so it is still likely to remove upkeeps a lot of the time. But there is a higher chance of it failing, and on higher armor things there is a good change of it not coming off.

 

I'm not saying that there should be a solo available to every faction that has upkeep removal, but comparing him to Eiryss based on the single similarity of them having the potential ability to remove an upkeep isn't really fair.

Edited by wolf9416

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StreetPizza    20

Its not the whole story but it is a big part of the story.  Eiryss2 also existed in a game without premeasuring and she also existed in a game with easier access to stealth mitigation and even more options for upkeep removal (purification was available in 4 different factions not just one).

Eilish is a game changer even with the limitations you list.  Universal ranged upkeep removal across all factions should simply not be a thing.  For example any melee centric army will never be able to rely on their upkeeps with Eilish around.  You thought Madrak1 with surefoot on champs in Blood of Heroes might be an interesting option?  Forget about it.

The other reason he shouldn't have upkeep removal at all is that it combines too well with his damage to spell casters ability.  Upkeep removal makes him ubiquitous in application and his presence in lists will be very high.  As such that combined with his other abilities will push greylords, druids, battle mages ect off the table because you won't be able to rely on them doing anything.   Those are expensive units that will carry far to high a risk that they'll be made ineffective because your opponent brought something with a different role in mind.  

Another unfortunate side effect is that Eilish will be the best counter for Eilish.  His anti spell casting effect neuters opposing Eilish's by making boosting too risky a proposition.  You can't afford to risk your 5pt solo to a 2xd3 damage role by boosting your own role and taking the d3 from your opponent's anti magic field.  So great ... we now get to see eilish in every list on both sides of the table.  Games will partially devolve into who can snipe out Eilish first.  That also means Cygnar and Khador win big.  Sound fun?

If he loses upkeep removal then he's just a great spell slinger / support model (remember puppet strings!) with some moderate spell defense which is a good role to have that can be built into a list.  Then he drop back to 4 pts.  With upkeep removal he should be a minimum of 7pts ... just like Eiryss.

 

Edited by StreetPizza

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Xeurian    16
1 hour ago, StreetPizza said:

With upkeep removal he should be a minimum of 7pts ... just like Eiryss.

Eiryss1 (the 7pt Eiryss) does not remove upkeeps. Eiryss3 does so by tagging the caster and Eiryss2's opponents can take a d3 to keep their spell in play.

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StreetPizza    20
1 minute ago, Xeurian said:

Eiryss1 (the 7pt Eiryss) does not remove upkeeps. Eiryss3 does so by tagging the caster and Eiryss2's opponents can take a d3 to keep their spell in play.

That's MKIII eiryss

The Eiryss we're discussing was MKII and she was 3pts and still considered undercosted at that point.  Meaning in MKIII terms she was more likely a 7pt model.

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Xeurian    16
9 minutes ago, StreetPizza said:

That's MKIII eiryss

The Eiryss we're discussing was MKII and she was 3pts and still considered undercosted at that point.  Meaning in MKIII terms she was more likely a 7pt model.

Ahk, I can see that.

 

As for Mr. Garrity, I have no complaints so long as he can't show up in themes as is currently being tested.

Edited by Xeurian

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